tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post8273890187517041747..comments2024-03-24T10:29:28.588+05:30Comments on like a feather....: The Fallacy of PatriotismErotemehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03677513867884448593noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-63842713663771312312019-06-27T00:13:32.941+05:302019-06-27T00:13:32.941+05:30Nope. War is a racket, ran by politicians, so ther...Nope. War is a racket, ran by politicians, so there is no incentive to defend. Only offend and justify its existence. Govenment defense is not economically viable, nor is it trustworthy.libertathiesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15989851837931072042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-19948721943208908392011-05-31T22:33:35.631+05:302011-05-31T22:33:35.631+05:30Thanks!
While you justify the need for internal p...Thanks!<br /><br />While you justify the need for internal policing knowing that people can't be expected to be sensible, doesn't the same hold for the need for the military to guard borders? I mean, we need the military precisely because people aren't sensible enough to allow the need for world peace to supersede their territorial instincts.<br /><br />Also, while the borders drawn maynot be natural, in the physical sense of the word, I feel it is a human (actually even animal) instinct to socialise, form groups, feel threatened by other groups in the eternal struggle for survival. This feeling can be seen in an individual, then grows on to his/her family and on a larger scale there are culture-based identities- religious identities, caste-based identities, regional identities. Then there is language. I have always thought that the only way the citizens of the world would be sensible enough to feel "one" is when we are threatened by an external race.dispassionate_observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14982736957830587099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-81391733347243711312011-05-31T16:35:59.595+05:302011-05-31T16:35:59.595+05:30Dear DO,
Ooops! I seem to have lost my manner...Dear DO,<br /> Ooops! I seem to have lost my manners. Welcome to this blog. Hope you find more words that hold your interest. :-)Erotemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677513867884448593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-28311194734376793162011-05-31T16:35:12.603+05:302011-05-31T16:35:12.603+05:30Dear DO,
Not sure where the fallacy is that you ar...Dear DO,<br />Not sure where the fallacy is that you are pointing to. Yes we might require more than sensibility. We'd probably require a lot of trust & willingness to let go & not control everything. But how is that a fallacy? :-) Do help me understand.Erotemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677513867884448593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-77823074742711479622011-05-31T10:13:09.528+05:302011-05-31T10:13:09.528+05:30Hello. I stumbled upon your blog looking for a tra...Hello. I stumbled upon your blog looking for a translation to the song "Ullathil Nalla Ullam". <br />Your writing and ideas got me interested and I got all the way to this post.<br /><br />I subscribe to the fallacy of patriotism. http://aimlessandabstract.blogspot.com/2007_08_01_archive.html<br />However, I think this is where I may have spotted a flaw in the argument.<br /><br />"I think the day the military is dismantled and all we have is internal security for law enforcement and managing petty crimes like thefts and riots (I wish we could even do away with that but that requires everyone to be sensible), that day we can bury patriotism and be a sensible nation/world."<br /><br />Don't you think it requires a lot more than sensibility (that you say is much needed before internal law enforcement could be done away with), for people to wish to do away with their military.dispassionate_observerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14982736957830587099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-12757372605928893152010-09-24T01:50:33.979+05:302010-09-24T01:50:33.979+05:30This comment has been removed by the author.Unknown!!!https://www.blogger.com/profile/18175262167978043233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-70493419607915061592010-09-24T01:49:56.305+05:302010-09-24T01:49:56.305+05:30people who run away from India and settle abroad a...people who run away from India and settle abroad are more or less indirectly saying that they are not patriotic..but is anyone stopping them? no Sir, it is only those narrow minded nehruvian socialists..who said swadesi stuff, imports restriction etc...now people just go for the best..we buy toyota cars,samsung tvs,nike shoes etc..who is stopping us and tellin us to buy indian..love indian stuff..<br /><br />I'd agree with you on that point..of Indians shying away other Indians in foreign land..I've experienced..but that behaviour could be attributed to something in our past..this behaviour we dont see among other nationalities..like a american sees another one in diff nation..the next moment..they will be seen in some pub drinkin beer..may be our introversion nature [I dont know..cant explain this]<br /><br />yes we all should be open to different perspectives...now being patriotic shouldnt narrow our thoughtprocess ..we may find a fellow indian boring and find some pakistani interesting..now being patriotic doesnt mean u shld hate the pakistani..i have a pakistani blog follower who used to love talkin to me..and i used to help him in studies etc..and used to discuss with him about other matters like religion etc..now in this process i do ignore some other indian friends...now I am still patriotic towards India<br /><br />about the restaurant very well said..lemme pick up from the same example...u r right...we cant expect the food to be tasty nor we can ask to let us go and cook.. but if everyone sits on table and asks for food..who will cook and how much can he cook?..glad that u liked the point..right we should participate in the spring cleaning<br /><br />last point u said..is interesting..easy said but not done..in game theory we have to make move based on our expectation on what the other one would make [not forgetting that even he is rational and knows the rules of game]Unknown!!!https://www.blogger.com/profile/18175262167978043233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-41070546670521903882010-09-06T07:09:00.149+05:302010-09-06T07:09:00.149+05:30Dear U,
To say that no one is enforcing us would b...Dear U,<br />To say that no one is enforcing us would be mistaken the minute you walk into a crowd and proclaim that you aren't patriotic! I am not against loving our soil and flora, etc. nor am I against loving our people or belongings. I am against the notion that since I am Indian I am only supposed to love things Indian! When I am in India, I instinctively bond with travelers and artists. When I notice a gourmand, my face lights up. When I am in a different country, my face would light up for the same reason. I have met and seen several Indians when I was abroad, but all we did was smile, which is my same response to the natives of that land. Sure, we would have several things to discuss which I can't discuss with an Austrian or Brazilian or Canadian, like ghazals and ghee on alu paratha, but I can't discuss Bach and varieties of cheese with most Indians. Recently, I was extolling the various things one could do with Gouda and people here brushed me off. I was praying to find someone from Netherlands or surrounding areas to jump in joy with me. I did manage to find a pretty lady from Holland but unfortunately she doesn't like cheese! :-( In short, I prefer connecting with people with whom I can have a conversation, from whom I can learn something and who can bring in new perspectives (intersection of the 1st two traits). If that person is an Indian, then it is merely a piece of information. My roots and my people stay the same and have given me loads of things (including tastes, culture and aesthetics), but so have the Israelis, Americans, Spaniards and (to some extent) the Chinese.<br />I agree with your point about most of us (definitely me) expecting that all we had to do was pay taxes and things will happen magically! That is stupid and I keep feeling ashamed of that, but that is like going to a restaurant and expecting that just because I pay a bomb doesn't mean I should get excellent food! Well, yes, I must! I cannot be expected to go into the kitchen and do the cooking (how I wish they would let me). Similarly, I have an area of specialisation and am paying my taxes in order to facilitate others to do their work. If they don't, then I have every right to complain. If my customers complained about my product, I can't ask them to come and code with me. Nevertheless, your point is taken and we should attempt to participate in the spring cleaning. As I had mentioned in response to Rex's comment, there are countries without an army. So it is possible. We can maintain minimal border security and dismantle all our super-missile projects. We can sign up with a few countries and pay them periodically to ensure that no one attacks us. Outsource the military!!! :-D <br />I am glad you responded with what you felt. Helps stir a conversation... :-)Erotemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677513867884448593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-36980901297685842822010-09-03T02:44:37.980+05:302010-09-03T02:44:37.980+05:30Have to say that, it is an interesting take on pat...Have to say that, it is an interesting take on patriotism,freedom..etc.<br /><br />Key statement"Even honesty is stupid if everyone is going to be dishonest except me"...this is very very true.<br /><br />I'd like to comment on 2 things..<br />1)"Patriotism expects me to love the county's soil, flora, fauna, natural entities, etc. I do, but I also love the Alps and the Amazon"<br /><br />We still are living in a democratic country no one is enforcing our choices...now the patriotism you have said in the above line..we are expected to do so because..we have our roots here, our belongings..our family..blood relations...friends..distant relatives..people who know you..now again the exceptions are not enforced by govt ..it is by your own ppl.<br />..you may like alps..but you cant get all of these there..and going by the "key statement"..not everyone will think like a global citizen..ppl attach their emotions with the place n people..the ppl at alps will not readily embrace u into their society..from time immemorial..we ppl have always been craving to be part of some common belonging... you can see this movies like apocalypto..where when ppl from other tribe come..the whole tribe becomes one to fight..so it is animal instinct..and even at this hitech age it will still be there...<br />for instance..if you see an Indian in some alien land wouldnt you connect with him..now what is that creating a bond there..now why do you need a reason to bond..or is it the other..you bond becos you have a reason...<br /><br /><br />2)the expenditure on military..<br />Corruption has rotted the whole system..and defence is no exception to it. But what can we do when our enemies are breathing at our neck ..<br />Infra and defence are high investment areas which have to be taken care by government..anyways now it is effectively managed by PPP projects. The other things you said is education and employment..now you are saying we pay tax..and it should happen like a magic..I think..we should also contribute in other ways like..setting up your own firm..provide employment..provide education..impart knowledge..watever..if everyone thinks I am payin tax..I will go work in US..and expect things to happen magically..get down to grass roots level and contribute something to the nation..now if u r lookin for reasons to why I should contribute..then you r contradicting ur self..cos u already have indirectly meant that you are interested..<br />The expenditure on military is like buying insurance for ourselves..it is to handle contigencies..again ur 'key statement' is also applicable here<br /><br />Well Sir, I just wrote whatever I felt..everything is straight from my heart. I am proud to be Indian..I am proud of the contribution we have done to mankind.. our past..our history..our heritage..the religions,languages,culture,traditions..etc..Having said that I am aware of the corruption..the terrorism..watever..every country has its own share in this front..just that we are democracy..we can shout out loud..Unknown!!!https://www.blogger.com/profile/18175262167978043233noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-67042714594731952262010-08-14T08:09:56.215+05:302010-08-14T08:09:56.215+05:30Dear P,
I agree. Most things require societal/envi...Dear P,<br />I agree. Most things require societal/environmental cooperation. Even honesty is stupid if everyone is going to be dishonest except me. I would be thoroughly exploited and stand to lose. Glad you found it interesting...<br /><br />Dear R,<br />Defend them from whom? This ties in with what Parvati-ji says. Unless everyone dismantles their military, it would probably be impractical. Nevertheless, your belief that freedom is ridiculous without the ability to protect it is wrongly formed. You probably equate the ability to defend it with the presence of an army. There are several countries without an army. India too managed a significant portion of its freedom without an army. What you cite about the last straw of the freedom movement is not entirely correct. Britian did not clash with the Indian Army (INA was not the Indian army)! They had included several Indians in their army. So it is a case of revolt/mutinies within the British army and not of India's army fighting the British army. I agree that is probably just pedantic differentiation but the truth remains that the very need to mark their (the kings') territory over and above an expansive togetherness which allowed the British to occupy India in the first place. Thereafter it was a case of the bigger bully winning which doesn't mean patriotism makes sense or having an army is vital. Even with an army we can't protect our freedom against, say, the onslaught of USA or China (as was demonstrated). If that is ok because "we atleast tried" then why not have a 4 member army and "try with them"? Other than the stupidity of patriotism, I also believe that the expenditure on military can be re-routed to better infrastructure, better education and creating employment for nearly all of India. Food management and alleviating hunger is definitely something that can be realised if we didn't burn money in coming up with newer missiles. Sign an agreement with China, Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, England, Russia, USA, France and a few others that by dismantling the army you declare that you will never attack anyone on earth and hence, if someone threatened to attack India, they should help for which every citizen of their country will be provided free chaat when they visit India.<br />By transforming our approach towards living, we can nevertheless create an example by which others can live and infect goodness the world over. Having said that, I know that this will never happen because people and governments are obsessed with security and the military but it brings me great comfort to let people know that they are stupid before they continue with their stupidity!! :-DErotemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03677513867884448593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-24064231546977625182010-08-14T01:29:32.236+05:302010-08-14T01:29:32.236+05:30I disagree with your assertion on dismantling the ...I disagree with your assertion on dismantling the military. Freedom and peace are meaningless unless you have the ability to defend them when they're under threat.<br />A small country like Israel, for example, is surrounded by hostile neighbors who would love to see it destroyed-which is why they have a compulsory draft for all citizens.<br />The British-who were few in number-managed to rule over us only by the strength of the Indian Army that was loyal to them. Thousands of Indians died in the 2 World Wars as part of the British Indian Army.<br />And the final reason for their leaving us was again because of the mutiny by the Royal Indian Navy sailors in 1946- which led to spreading unrest among the Indian Army, and could possibly trigger a repeat of 1857.<br /><br />If we define a country as a political territory of people bound together by common ideals - then strong military forces are essential to uphold and defend those ideals. With neighbors such as we have today, where would we be without our armed forces?<br /><br />To summarize- your freedom as a nation can only be guaranteed by your ability to fight to defend it.<br />(By this token Tibet is already a lost cause, no amount of non violent protests is going to drive out the Chinese).<br /><br />Finally, here's another quote on the topic :)<br /><br />"Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles." - George Bernard ShawRexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17825718280187799092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9766640.post-29564407159549115542010-08-12T16:51:11.996+05:302010-08-12T16:51:11.996+05:30As in all environmental issues, unless and until a...As in all environmental issues, unless and until all do everything environmentally friendly all the time, violence too cannot be abdicated only by a section of the population while all the rest subscribe to it, be it in the name of patriotism or any other of the million valid/invalid reasons offered.<br /><br /># Though universal attitudes seem to be politically correct nowadays, certain vibrations of certain nations may be intimate to certain people and they could profess and in all genuine honesty a partiality or patriotism for that country. And as I said, unless violence is absent all over the world, I would do all to protect my home or country that I feel is my place on Earth.<br /><br /># Great post. Interesting way to see patriotism.Parvatinoreply@blogger.com